A place for general potato gun questions and discussions. To investigate this topic in more detail without a lot of expensive and dangerously powerful magnets, we created a small scale model, roughly 1/8 the size. This sturdy setup showed the most promise. (not the same as the hardness of a stone with its 1-10 scale) Here hardness is a measure of how well a magnet keeps its magnetism. A 3D-printed, 1/8 Scale Model of a Pogo Stick, Preloaded Coil Spring, Force vs. The temperature will also very slightly increase. Phone: (800) 662-4638 I agree about the issue of adjusting for playing style, but since only fairly serious players bother I think that it could be a workable solution. Consider the pogo stick pressed down with the spring fully compressed. The magnets rest at a defined distance apart from each other and repel when pushed. Do you want that inside your gun? Spring pairs can serve as a vibration isolation device acting as an efficient low-pass filter across a range of frequencies and mass. But a lack of understanding of the basic forces of nature never stopped anyone, so the folks at K & J Magnetics made a really neat test. The energy in this compressed pogo stick is equal to the area under the spring curve. 6~v`LM1NX8#I\Xk"6Y+GkH=PJ^)LJ }L@0#qd~S8|_8O0iCdi ` # Fit inside a 3D-printed holder we made, we can bounce our miniature pogo stick. This raises up the force even more, but its still dramatically weaker than the spring over most of the range of travel. Instrument Design, Construction and Repair, Topic: Magnets instead of button springs (Read 9958 times), Quote from: squeezy on March 25, 2012, 07:53:53 PM, Quote from: squeezy on March 25, 2012, 08:44:37 PM, http://www.matitflutes.com/04keywork.html, Quote from: Theo on March 25, 2012, 10:37:20 PM, SimplePortal 2.3.5 2008-2012, SimplePortal. Industrial Magnetics, Inc. - Making Things Better, Home / Mag-Mate / Smart-Mags / Spring Magnets. Place cylindrical magnet around moving portion. Magnets arent a one-to-one replacement magnets behave differently than springs. The answer, of course, is no, but it does provide a fascinating look at linear versus exponential growth. My intuition suggests you would have a more controllable and positive-feel set up if, as well as the magnet under the button to repel/push it back up, you also have a magnet on the pallet board to pull it shut/keep it shut. Hot necessarily under the button, it could be under the lever but closer to the axle, where movement is less and magnet could be smaller. So we come to this fascinating case of native content(amusing, veiled advertising) from a store that sells really, really powerful magnets. This still isnt anywhere near the strength of the coil spring, but its improving in the right direction. Check out our spring catalogue and if you have a visionary project in mind contact us so we help you design your perfect spring. Ive got a simple solution. %%EOF Hackaday Podcast 179: Danger Chess, Corona Motors, An Omni-Walker, And A Fast Talking Telescope, This Week In Security: Symbiote, Smart Locks, And CosmicStrand, Your Own Engineering Workstation, With Mame. Distance. I most definitely do not understand magnets at all and am full of admiration for those that do. Otherwise you are relying on the repulsion of the under-button magnet to hold it shut when at its weakest (ie when the N and S are furthest away) . Higher speed implies a bigger motor, which in turn will consume more energy and cost much more. As an example anecdote: I have four medium-sized (0.5x2), cylindrical neodymium magnets that have been doing little other than sticking to each other in a drawer for years. We want there to be some force right at the beginning of the travel. Specifically, if the coercivity of a magnet is low (such as in alnico magnets), its magnetic domains can easily be realigned/scrambled by an external field. You will be emailed a one-time, temporary password. If you go to 2, you expect 16 lb. If the magnets are pulled apart, they try to pull together. Were not going to focus on these comparisons here. The title of the article asks if magnets can replace the spring in a pogo stick. ( I have however never done this conciously in order to prolong spring life! Preloaded Coil Spring, Force vs. 1385 S M 75 - Boyne City, MI 49712 USA Later we figured out how to make stronger ones and along with that strength came a special bonus. Perhaps this is something to do with only using a very small amount of the springs travel pressing the button just enough to get the pallet off the board rather than attempting to shove the button down the hole! Hohner Morgane D/G, pre-Erica Hohner in C/F and G/C. Learn more. The forces involved in a real pogo stick are quite powerful, pushing with many hundreds of pounds of force. Making a steel spring is incredibly cheap compared to the expenses in making a neodymium magnet strong enough to do the same job. The very obviously have weaker and stronger points when rolled around each other, where they want to stick in specific positions, despite the fact that theyre axially magnetized and should roll freely. Some have higher Currie points than others (the temperature at which a magnet looses its magnetism) Physical agitation as well as heat pound at the borders and potentially fragment magnetic domains within the magnet. ". The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.. Why is this so? With a coiled spring the force is constant over the distance of compression. Exciting Arrival: The Bruderer BSTA 500-110B, The Sustainable Benefits of Air Source Heat Pumps in Manufacturing, Recent Trends in the Manufacturing Industry, The Benefits From Upgrading to Digital Manufacturing. vBulletin v3.8.11, Copyright 2000-2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc. Why aren't there magnetic recoil "springs? During this testing, we noticed that the spacing between the magnets wasnt even. xy|U8z=[u:{uh We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. ), Some slightly un-scientific measurements (ie used TSMB's kitchen scales), Oakwood Model 4, Castagnari Dony, Castagnari Tommy, Baffetti Binci, Hohner Preciosa, Melos, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses. We found that repelling magnets are very different compared to springs. They will rest at a defined distance apart from each other, repel when pushed together and attract when pulled apart. Theres not much force at all in the first half-inch of travel. The benefits would be more craziness due to variable and adjustable characteristics. Spring magnets pairs are programmed to attract at a distance until they pass the zero-force transition point (a specific and engineered distance) at which point they will repel and hold position at that distance. We got our hands on an old coil-spring pogo stick and measured the strength of its spring. Well, technically, entropy will cause the ordered magnetic domains to eventually fall into chaos, but thats on a hell of a time scale. Maybe stacking the magnets (ns-sn-ns-sn-ns) could change the felt recoil characteristics, like those double or tripple sprung units (which are already $80 + !!). Common sense says yes. Its still not the same as the old spring, but the force is similar. Im sure K&J Magnetics has a wizard there who knows a thing or two about that. How far will he shoot up when the spring is released? A simple mechanical spring from the hardware store seemed a good place to start. The magnetic springs, on the other hand, simply use the energy stored in the magnetic fields so they can achieve incredibly speeds consuming very little energy when compared to a conventional motor. I think rsrocket1's objections are valid. Distance, where the energy in the spring is shown by the area under the line. I personally think i, taking into account the added weight & probably cost - all those magnets produced in relatively small quantities would not come as cheap as 'standard' size magnets produced by the million. What exactly would the magnets get you that a normal spring couldn't do? Theres also a video, you can check that out below. How did that work? Theres a difference between a linear relationship and and exponential relationship. This causes some partial demagnetization of the stator, reducing the maximum torque the motor can produce. By the way, just to save some pain and suffering, Earnshaw's theorem is not only proven mathematically, it is also demonstrated in reality as well. Spring Polymagnets behave like a magnetic spring. We are all worms, but I do believe I am a glow worm. These cookies do not store any personal information. All orders placed & paid online by 1PM ET (M-F) will be shipped the same day! A pogo stick is simply a spring with a set of handles and footholds that is the subject of a great number of hilarious YouTube videos, at least one of which is impressive. Playing with it, something is obvious right away. Do they give you the performance you want where you need it? It worked like any pogo stick would. For the 4, 5 and 6 magnet stacks, the outermost gaps tended to be a bit larger than the inner gaps. This category only includes cookies that ensures basic functionalities and security features of the website. Attempted solution: Place large magnet in moving portion. Festeezio liked Hacking DVD for Sensing 0.000000001 to 1.1 Newton. Besides, issues such as noise, unwanted vibrations and wear are also solved with magnetic springs because they are a silent as well as profitable technology. If the world knew just how much playing around with magnets and simulations of magnets Ive done, they would consider putting me away until they realized Im not doing anything dangerous. That drives home the problem we face -- the repelling magnet setup doesn't have nearly as much travel as the coil spring. For our pogo stick where we want to spread the force over a long springy distance, the coil spring is better. Does Library Bloat Make Your Smartphone App Look Fat? Its weaker in the first 3/4 of travel, then gets stronger at the end. The force follows a simple, linear equation: The force (F) equals the spring constant (k) multiplied by the distance the spring is compressed (x). With those youll move through such a small portion of the field it will appear linear. I'm going to guess it is a cost factor. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. What magnets should be used to replace a given spring? Some observers have described the behavior of the spring Polymagnet as a contactless attachment, which is a unique property in the world of mechanical engineering. (Unfortunately very few know that.) What can we do to increase the strength, especially over a greater portion of the travel? (888) 582-0822, TRAMP METAL GROUP: There is a little bit of potential energy in a magnet. Heat and Vibration are enemies of magnets. It worked well. Some benefits I see would be more precise (maybe) customization of "spring rates". If high (such as in neodymium), a much stronger field is required to do the same thing. (and using diamagnetic material is not cheating, you are just playing a different game outside the scope of Earnshaw's theorem), It should come as no surprise that when you look at the I-Beam in my basement ceiling in my workshop, first you see the magnets, then the I-Beam because of the level of coverage. Heat the magnet above the curie temperature. Please check our Privacy Policy to see what we'll do with your information. This pattern turned up in a number of different scenarios we tried, beyond the one shown here. Its very weak, and doesnt start increasing until close to the end. Interesting idea. Maybe he's never heard "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Uh okay. After bouncing around the office a bit, we got a good sense of how much force it provides. The solution is to preload the spring. We compressed a bunch of magnets in a stack, varying the number of magnets. qmIwrmik]CCh6K?H@ r JEQ6r{> Y9yA Magnetic keepers (you see them mostly on old horseshoe magnets) wouldnt be necessary otherwise. Might make a box slower. Hooke's law is a principle of physics that states that the force needed to extend or compress a spring by some distance is proportional to that distance. A pogo stick that emulates a spring using electric motor should be possible. (888) 582-0821, WALKER MAGNETICS: I think that Sandy's point is a good one. No, no more than gravity decreases with time. Lets review how springs work before exploring how magnets are different from springs. i dont get it what dose he need the magnets for? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. 114 0 obj <>stream Polymagnet is a trademark of Correlated Magnetics Research. Festeezio liked DIY Beam-on-Target Fusion Particle Accelerator. However, if theyre stored in the presence of other magnetic fields, they can be degraded, depending on how strong those fields are. I think there are 2 main variables - the strength (size) of magnets used in the first place, and their distance from each other. This form collects your name, email, company name, phone number and your enquiry so that one of our team can communicate with you and provide assistance. To evaluate the strength of this two-magnet system, we simulated and experimentally measured the forces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_keeper. Any one out there experience this? We really only feel the repulsion force when the magnets get close together. If the magnets are stored alone, they should be fine indefinitely. Theo "really understands" magnets (and melodeons! Four, five, and six magnets were added to the model pogo stick, and while six magnets gave this model pogo enough force to be bouncy, there simply wasnt enough space for the pogo stick to compress. Motors are the machines conventionally used to control speed: they convert the electrical energy into kinetic one to go forward and extract this kinetic energy when they need to stop. When fully compressed, the coil spring had a total energy of about 14.6 inch-pounds (1.65 joules). Copyright 2007-2022 - Industrial Magnetics, Inc. - All Rights Reserved. We constructed a small contraption that stacked them together on threaded rod, repelling with a lot of force. hbbd```b``3@$-tL@d`*m"YH60$j@l)H h[X@m  The difference between the magnets vs. the coil spring is dramatic. I don't think this would be a good idea, especially in a steel pistol. KC^qJ6(BN]FK$! We added a third magnet, alternating which way the polarity faces with each magnet. The bigger the area, the more energy, the higher we bounce. That said there are a lot of different kind of magnets nowadays. How long one can expect to use 2 magnets like here before they wont repulse each other? Spring polymagnets should be constrained in at least one dimension to function properly. All my other boxes still have their full complements of original springs. No, it is not. Here at European Springs we know how important springs are in everydays life. How much of a magnetic field a permanent magnet can tolerate is dependent on the material its made out of. endstream endobj 98 0 obj <>stream At least springs don't have to "move", just compress. :-) ). The combined fields created by the domains within the magnet were actually able reinforce each other and keep each other stable making them harder. Why? Heat can kill neodymium magnets, that may be the reason. On the other hand, when all north or south poles align together the spring is in an unstable position. But that needs power and probably much power. (Comment Policy). *) For example, wrap a wire around it connected to a load. Your shop teacher was right. Magnetic springs offer a constant force over their entire working range and they dont need electricity at all. 108 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/ID[]/Index[93 22]/Info 92 0 R/Length 87/Prev 1157343/Root 94 0 R/Size 115/Type/XRef/W[1 3 1]>>stream With four magnets, the fully compressed magnets are about the same height as the fully compressed coil spring. For a pogo stick, we dont want the spring to start with zero force. The two gaps in the middle look smaller than the outer gaps. My boxes tend to get a hard life, playing in fairly loud ceilidh bands and outdoors for morris. Does leaving your magazine loaded really hurt the Spring, now it doesn't matter. )* and should be listened to! "It could be that the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others" unknown. How can we do this? As with so many magnet answers, it depends. Mounting three magnets onto a pogo stick gave the same exponential force, but still not enough. I agree Ian, I've been full time repairing sings 2004 and in that time I have replaced some Hohner springs, but I can't recall replacing a single broken spring in an Italian box. Enter the email address associated with your Amazing Magnets account. Yeah. This is *FAR* from simple and not at all analytical. Like a captured spring, why not captured magnets with or without an additional spring to prevent them from hitting each other and shattering. Any cookies that may not be particularly necessary for the website to function and is used specifically to collect user personal data via analytics, ads, other embedded contents are termed as non-necessary cookies. This has already been done by machines such as the 3D printer, a device that would have been thought to be impossible a few decades ago. They printed out a 1/8th scale pogo stick, complete with a spring. Re: "It's been my personal experience that the force actually increases over the length of compressing a coil spring.". When it finally does, it increases very quickly! We've seen the crazy repulsion some strong magnets can provide, why not use that? If you would like to send drawings with your enquiry, please email us directly with your enquiry and drawings attached to. Theo, what do you think? Scientists arent fond of common sense. These Smart-Mag units hover at an equilibrium distance in space. Interestingly all magnets used to decay fairly quickly given the state-of-the-art tech back then. Fax: (231) 582-0622 Now lets replace the spring with two repelling, 3/4" O.D. A key measure of pogo stick performance is how much it shoots up into the air. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. Magnets may show some use in target rifle trigger. I just learned along the way that magnetic field follow inverse cubed relationship rather than inverse squared. Thats a lot weaker! To get a quick idea of what magnets could do, we built something we could stand on. =RCO O Does their repulsive force diminish with time? No. G/C of uncertain parentage; lovely little Hlavacek 1-row Heligonka; B/E Koch. View Full Version : Why aren't there magnetic recoil "springs?".